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#451999 - 03/13/13 07:53 PM Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners
nmac Offline
Guru

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 696
I finally broke down and purchased a set of Gen16 AE cymbals. (could not pass on Ebay deal- 14"HH 18"CR, 20"R, 16"CR, 12"SP and cases for Mics and DCP with extra cables and cymbal case all NIB for $1000) with the addition of direct source pickups coming out mid year and DCP software to allow me to tweak to my own taste I took the plunge.

My question is about how best to connect the two units together. I know the prefered method is to run out of module into DCP then out to FOH.

My current live setup I come out of Module Main out direct to FOH & Monitor out of module to my stage monitoring system. (2- Mackie SRM450's & Single active Sub) (this gives me independent control of each)

I am wondering about sending the DCP main out into the Aux. In (allows some effect options if needed - EQ compression etc.) to maintain my current setup with cymbal volume control still on the DCP or Aux In settings.

Any thoughts on this? Will this damage module? Pro's & Con's?
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#452000 - 03/14/13 03:47 AM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: nmac]
TomTom Offline
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Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 1326
Loc: New York
nmac,

Using the DCP main out to the AUX INPUT of the DTX900 is a great way to set it up. You won't damage the DTX module, just be sure you have the DTX900 input set to line level in the UTILITY > AUX IN menu (store the UTILITY setting).
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#452054 - 03/18/13 08:00 PM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: TomTom]
nmac Offline
Guru

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 696
Thanks Totom...I tried it out today....really like the sound through the dtx900 module. Now spend some time tweaking them both.
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#452075 - 03/22/13 09:14 PM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: nmac]
nmac Offline
Guru

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 696
I have had these Gen16 cymbals for week or so and so far I am happy with them. If you think these are going to be plug and play...think again...as with any acoustic drum, cymbal or drum module you have to work with them to get them sound good to your ear. Every acoustic drum set, cymbal or module I have purchased has needed something.

I went online an down loaded the DCP software long before deciding to take the plunge. I spent hours reading through the manuals & help available, even researched the good and bad points. Then I looked at the future plans Zildjian had for improving them with DS pickups, and even going to offer a trade-in program on the old mica, then I got a good deal on these so I took the plunge.

Feedback with the current pickups is bit of an challenge until you get the hang of these things. Always being a glass half full kind of person, I feel like I can master these things. I currently have my monitors right in front of me directly under ride and two front crashes. I have been able to get this working and feel like it can be usable this way. (DS pickups will be a non-issue & will get them as soon as they become available)

As I said earlier the tone of these not pleasing with out some gaffer tape and minor fine tuning to your ears.

Crashes have been the most challenging so far. After downloading the beta software on a link I found from another popular drum forum, with additional DS pickup presets it started to really please my ear. Crashes were still would need some work but having the software to now do some tweaking I thought back to my first time setting down to the Yamaha modules and realizing how far I had come (With allot of help from most of you here) I took the plunge and really feel good about my purchase.

Another benefit I have discovered, at least to me is now I can re-assign my Tom2 to Hihat slider, Tom3 to Cymbal slider and Tom4 to Misc. Slider and this really gives me better control of individual pieces. With the Gen-16 DCP having individual volume controls on each cymbal and it gives me better control of every piece of my kit. (simple minded I know but could never keep everything balanced to my liking)

I will most likely wait until I get the DS Pickups to attempt to go live with these just because I am very comfortable with my DTX900 setup I have been using for gigs for several years and do not want to stress out on what should be a fun gig! If it ain't fun I don't wanna do it!

That's my two cents. Feel pretty good for a week or so of effort.

Zildjian seems to be working hard to improve the Gen16 AE experience and the little things they have done since I started watching these has really IMHO helped them. I know these are not for everyone and not trying to push them, just as I have taken so much from this forum over the last 6-7 years I just wanted to give back from my experiences.

Hope this helps someone!



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#452193 - 04/12/13 03:58 PM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: nmac]
nmac Offline
Guru

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 696
I am anxious for the Direct source systems to hit the shelves so I can take that next step.

As I said in my previous post these things take patience. They are not plug and play...LOL

I do believe the Direct source pick-ups bring them closer, by eliminating feedback, then all you have to do is tweak the DCP to your preferences. (from some of the Beta tests I have heard on web, the capture better tone of cymbal depending on placement)

To clarify more on feedback. Once you get yor custom Preset kits or individual cymbal presets shaped the way you like, and set you DCP volumes were the unit is stable and no feedback with good volume.....Warning...scrolling through the presets (especially some of the factory presets) can send these things screaming...LOL
Most of my presets have gain reductions, cuts here and there & some of the factory presets are HOT! Again Direct Source pickups eliminate this! It's like walking up on a sleeping bear...can make for very anxious moments when you change cymbals! No happend but once, I learned a lession on that!

I have noticed one very improtant factor that is true of all cymbals and especially in these Gen16 cymbals is that not all are not created equal. I bought 13"HH, 16"CR & 18"CR/Ride set and then bought another alacart 16"CR and these things are very different. The crash that came with the set was really mellow and acoustically sounded much more like you would think a crash should sound with out the anoying ring. Still capable of feedback issues, but easier to control.

The second 16"CR was not the same. It is much deeper and will ring for hours...LOL A long time for sure. Gaffer tape solved that problem. It does however, have several differences...when I count the perforations starting from center moving outward it has several more rows to the bow of the cymbal than the first unit & the bell is taller. (did not measure it but definately visually taller to the eye.

This maybe a result of the mfg dates and evolution of the product. The second crash seems beeifer than the first on that came with the set and might be causing tone differences. OR this might be result of cracking feedback I have read about on other forums during my research.

Still very happy with the playability & tone that I have managed to achieve.

Will be testing live situation out soon so I will provide that experience first chance I get.

12" Splash I have finally nailed it to where it sounds good...very close to my 30 yr old zildjian splash I used for years.

Overall I would have to say still please with these, and like my DTX learning curve happy with my understanding & ability to get there faster!!!

Understanding "EQing" really helps with these! (through Gen16 Software)

I remember the evolution of finding the right acoustic cymbals when I first stared out playing drums years ago. Except I bought new tried them, Swapped some to get the right combination for my niche. I think I had some cymbals that sounded awful back then, but no experience or money was my obsticle then...LOL I guess my thing is with Gen16 I feel I can shape this group of cymbals into the right variety vs. going back though that all again.

I hope this helps others wondering about the Gen16 AE cymbals.
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#452778 - 08/07/13 07:16 PM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: nmac]
nmac Offline
Guru

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 696
Update. I received my Direct source pickups last weekend. They are definately a game changer. For me this brings things much closer to plug and play.

The feedback is eliminated! Sound quality of the cymbals & with the additional tweaks using the software provided has improved them as well.

The presets are much clearier and defined.

They offer so much more and look cooler with the new LED lights and options.

Since I have received these I have also received several new preset updates for Crashes and Rides that have made them much better.

I put my faith in Zildjian when I bought them even with the negative press on the original release. Got a good deal on them when I bought them and Zildjian offerd me swap of old pickups for new DS pickups basicly for difference in price.

Zildjian really is working to provide the quality product that has kept them in business for so long.

Pickup placement takes some experimentation and tweaking, but even then they are much better than the original microphone pickups.

I realize this is my opinion only, but very happy with the progress so far and that they are still working to improve them even beyond what they have.

The Hi-hats alone are a vast improvment over the edrum offerings to date and upgrade has brought the other cymbals right there with it.
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#452779 - 08/08/13 02:18 AM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: nmac]
flash86 Offline
Newcomer

Registered: 08/08/13
Posts: 4
Loc: Pennsylvania
I have ben following your experience with the gen-16's with great interest - thanks!

WIth the gen-16's going thru the Aux In, can you still put music from another source in as well? (playingto music/lesons from CD, iPod,etc)

Thanks again!

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#452782 - 08/15/13 12:56 PM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: flash86]
nmac Offline
Guru

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 696
Flash86,
I sent you a reply to your PM. Thought since you posted here I would share it with others. Hope you don't mind.


Flash86,
Yes I simply use the aux in on the Gen16 module. It has 3.5mm input for this purpose. Works great. Only thing is it does not allow input volume control from ipod, but I just use iPod volume.

There is an Aux input volume slider in Virtual Control Panel when connected to PC, but usually do not have that set up.

I have not looked at manual to see if certian button combos on DCP module will allow control of Aux input volume.
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#452783 - 08/15/13 04:04 PM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: nmac]
jovato Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 273
I really like what I am hearing about the new direct source pickups. I am seriously considering doing exactly what you have with a DTX 790/Gen16 hybrid. That would add a lot of expansion possibility to the DTX700 module (all 3 zone). I would love it if you could post some audio or video of your experience with the new direct source pickups. Thanks.

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#452785 - 08/16/13 12:00 AM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: jovato]
flash86 Offline
Newcomer

Registered: 08/08/13
Posts: 4
Loc: Pennsylvania
Nmac, thanks so much!
Glad you shared as obviously others are enjoying hearing about your experience.

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#452800 - 08/16/13 01:34 PM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: flash86]
nmac Offline
Guru

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 696
Jovato/Flash86,
I found great resource that provides video pictures and lots of feedback on these things.

If you follow the link below, somewhere in the 78-85 page of this thread there are many great videos of the DS pickups in action. (with personal accounts of trials etc..)

Not only do they cover Gen16 with single DS pickups, theres some great stuff on using two DS pickups on top and bottom to enhance the sound.

Finally one of the sofware designers has be very helpful in tweaking the presets based on feedback provided from many people on that forum. There have been at least 2-3 posts from them on new presets for crashes & rides in last couple of weeks. If you follow the thread front to back you will see softare enhancements that are being provided via the thread even before it hits the Gen16 site.

I know how hard it is to read every post, but you can start from about end 2012 through current and get tons of Gen16 & Direct source pickup information.

I would take time later to read all of them as it gives you idea of how hard Zildjian has worked to improve this product and I am amazed at how many people that hated them now are changing their minds.

Pay particular attention to the size & sound preferences of these guys since some of them are testing and providing feedback direct to Zildjian and if you are handy in mixing your own presets, EQing etc. I believe you can get good sound out of any model/Size. Just like we all did on our DTX modules.

I could shoot some video and record audio and will still do it if you don't get what you are looking for out of the link below.....In short, why re-invent the wheel!

http://vdrums.com/forum/showthread.php?65631-Zildjian-hybrid-cymbals-Acoustic-Electric/page83
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#452804 - 08/16/13 07:29 PM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: nmac]
nmac Offline
Guru

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 696
Here is link directly to the videos.
http://vimeo.com/61424333

Another link I found before the DS pickups.
May have to flip few pages either way, but worth watching.

http://magazine2.idrummag.com/idrum-mag-magazine-issue-5-steve-smith/issue5/page/79
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#452878 - 08/23/13 07:18 PM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: flash86]
lake_guy Offline
Regular

Registered: 10/21/12
Posts: 21
Loc: St. Paul, MN
Hi nmac

What PA do you use to play live? Did you find that there was a lot of tweaking needed or have you been doing your adjustments you described all along using the PA? What type of music are you playing?

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#452910 - 08/26/13 02:55 PM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: lake_guy]
nmac Offline
Guru

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 696
My personal monitor is two Mackie SRM450's & Active Sub. I run straight from the Cymbal processor & input into Aux on DTX900 module, then Monitor out (headphone out)to the (Mackie system)

For FOH we use all Peavey, passive 18' Subs & PR15's

Generally, I have set 3 to 4 preset kits to cover my kits and use mixer for final mix.

We play variety of music from 50's & 60's, Eagles to some harder rock.
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#453246 - 10/04/13 06:19 PM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: nmac]
nmac Offline
Guru

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 696
Update.....
I have been running Gen16 stereo through Aux in (Stereo Y)on the DTX900 module with good results & let me keep better control of both modules.

I had read on other forums that many people were running their drum module & Gen16 module into separate channels on mixer to add finishing touches to FOH sound.

I recently set (Aux in) insertion A to 5 band eq on only the GEN16 coming into the module. This has helped me improve on the sound for the Gen16 system and still allows me to have same mix through FOH & my monitor system setup as explained in earlier posts.

I have not tried it but was wondering if running EQ(InsA) into Compressor or Multi-band compressor (InsB) or one of the other effects available?

I am not a sound engineer, so I do not know what is best to combo to use or if that would even enhance sound.

Anyone have any thoughts on what I might try & if compression would be a good addition what might be good base settings to start with???
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#536445 - 04/27/14 05:22 PM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: flash86]
lake_guy Offline
Regular

Registered: 10/21/12
Posts: 21
Loc: St. Paul, MN
Has anyone tried recording with the gen16 cymbals? The biggest benefit for me with our simplistic recording approach is that with the dtx cymbals I have at least some ability to have tracks dedicated to specific cymbals. I haven't seen any method to do this with gen 16 because there are no seperated outs. I suppose I could always buy several gen16 control modules and put one cymbal into each. Ha!

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#536470 - 04/29/14 02:19 PM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: lake_guy]
nmac Offline
Guru

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 696
I have not tried this, but when I get my Buffed bronze series I might give it a go. Might play around with it and see what is possible.

I have kind of been in limbo until the ne cymbals get here in May.
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#536511 - 04/30/14 01:28 PM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: nmac]
nmac Offline
Guru

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 696
I previously posted about vdrums forum somewhat dedicated to Zildjian Gen16 AE has now moved to a new forum dedicated to Zildjian Gen16 AE systems.

gen16.freeforums.org

Great site with an administrator that has been very instrumental in the continued improvements of the Gen16 AE cymbal systems.

Also one of the reasons I am enjoying it so much, is that when I find something I do not like they seem to be a step ahead had have solution before I get chance to post it..LOL


Just a thought you might go to:

http://gen16.freeforums.org/new-tone-shapes-set-for-buffed-bronze-t19.html

http://gen16.freeforums.org/buffed-bronze-splashes-and-extras-t21.html

and down load the new presets for the new buffed bronze series from there and try them with the NP AE cymbals. I downloaded them, but have not tried them with original NP AE version of cymbals yet, but I will first chance I get until my new ones ship in week or so.


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#536659 - 05/07/14 01:33 PM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: nmac]
nmac Offline
Guru

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 696
Just a quick update.
Last night I downloaded the new Natural Series preset tone shapes & the extra content for the new buffed bronze AE cymbals.

http://gen16.freeforums.org/new-tone-shapes-set-for-buffed-bronze-t19.html

http://gen16.freeforums.org/buffed-bronze-splashes-and-extras-t21.html

I loaded them up and tried them with my original NP Nickel plated AE cymbals and well, they make NP sound so much better.

They definately blend with the music so much better and sound great.

I am awaiting my new Buffed Bronze set that I have on order(Due Mid May) and I am excited based on what I heard using my original NP cymbals with the new presets.
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#536683 - 05/10/14 12:40 AM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: flash86]
T0dd Offline
Regular

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 38
Loc: Indianapolis
nmac-
I would love to get all of my mics replaced with dsp's. How did you get Zildjian to cut you a deal on them? I absolutely cannot afford 11 dsp's at $90 a shot.
The second you are back playing a real hi-hat, there isn't any going back even if the Yamaha samples sounded much better. No complaints about Yahama drums or module, but it will be used in conjunction with Gen 16 AE cymbals!
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#536712 - 05/13/14 02:36 PM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: T0dd]
nmac Offline
Guru

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 696
T0dd,
I guess I just got lucky on the trade-in. Must have been timing and my communication with them. I had contacted them with issue on one of my cymbals(Bell shape on one of my 16" NP AE was visually different and they replaced it. Tone was way off.) I contacted them shortly after and they agreed to swap them out for the difference in price. Like I said Lucky.

Agree that once you go from rubber cymbals to these you will not go back. I do agree nothing against the Yamaha product I loved the PCY series and the RHH, and played them since 2006, but my wrists were killing me and I noticed when I played my acoustic kitthey did not hurt. So along came Zildjian Gen16 and that is where I am today.
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#536723 - 05/14/14 03:22 PM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: nmac]
T0dd Offline
Regular

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 38
Loc: Indianapolis
nmac-
That is kinda funny since I have a 16" that is way off of the tone! Thanks for the information.
Todd
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#536731 - 05/15/14 07:30 PM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: T0dd]
nmac Offline
Guru

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 696
This is what brought my attention to it I had two 16" cymbals and I noticed they sounded nothing alike. At first I thought nothing about it and was taking some general measurements since one bell looked taller and wider than the other. Contacted them and they had indicated there were approx. first 100 or so that were made that way.

The replacement they sent me is so close to the "good" cymbal that it is hard to tell the difference.

What are the odds of me getting one of that first 100.. LOL

Kudos to Zildjian for admitting this and standing behind their product.


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#537159 - 06/30/14 09:08 AM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: flash86]
maliyas Offline
Newcomer

Registered: 06/30/14
Posts: 2
I remember the
Cheap WildStar Gold evolution of finding the right acoustic cymbals when I first stared out playing drums years ago. Except I bought new tried them, Swapped some to get the right combination for my niche. I think I had some cymbals that sounded awful back then, but no experience or money was my obsticle then...LOL I guess my thing is with Gen16 I feel I can shape this group of cymbals into the right variety vs. going back though that all again.

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#543478 - 04/23/15 05:34 AM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: maliyas]
fifa15coins4u Offline
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Registered: 04/23/15
Posts: 66
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#543479 - 04/23/15 10:00 AM Re: Question for TomTom or Gen16 Owners [Re: fifa15coins4u]
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Posts: 66
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